Phil Ling podcast transcript

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Intro: Welcome to the Teacher Interview Podcast. I’m your host, Wes Kriesel. I work as Director of Innovation and Instructional Support in Fullerton School District, and every week we sit down and get to know a teacher better. My goal is to learn what drives and guides teachers, especially when venturing into that risky territory of trying something new. Join me. Today on the Teacher Interview Podcast, we spend time with Phil Ling. He works for Innovation and Instructional Support as a teacher on special assignment.

Wes Kriesel: Well, Phil, welcome.

Phil Ling: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on the show.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we are going to spend some time with you talking about how you got into teaching and then, like normal, we have asked three people, we asked you to give us three names that we could talk to and we asked them questions like what’s a moment where Phil was being very Phil-like, what’s one word to summarize Phil, and any bonus information they want to give us, or give me, to help me do a good job in the interview.

Phil Ling: Gotcha.

Wes Kriesel: So, we’re going to hear later from [00:01:21 Joy,] your wife, and from Matt Stricker whom you taught with at Parks, and Principal of Parks Laura Makely.

Phil Ling: All right. Sweet.

Wes Kriesel: Cool. So, tell me, how did you get into teaching?

Phil Ling: So, I graduated from a small School in Illinois called Wheaton College and I was first a business major. I have no idea why I chose that major.

Wes Kriesel: That sounds good.

Phil Ling: Yeah, it wasn’t actually for me, and so I ended up actually working part-time at a daycare center during my freshman year, or part of my freshman year.

Wes Kriesel: Freshman year of college?

Phil Ling: Of college, yeah, with some buddies of mine. We worked there in the afterschool daycare program. And so, that’s when I kind of realized, “I like working with kids and this might be a good thing.” So, sophomore year, I switched majors and got into elementary ed, and in other states you can actually major in education, whereas in California, you have to go through a fifth year of credentialing. So, I majored in elementary ed, I minored in psych, and then I graduated from Wheaton in ’96.

Wes Kriesel: Okay, roll back a little bit. So, you’re a college student, like the glory days, freedom, you’ve moved out – did you grow up in Illinois?

Phil Ling: No, I’m from New York.

Wes Kriesel: Okay, that’s what I thought.

Phil Ling: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: So, did you move from New York to Illinois for College?

Phil Ling: Okay, so I’ll back all the way up. So, I’m from Philly. I was born in Philadelphia.

Wes Kriesel: There you go, born and raised.

Phil Ling: Uh-huh. West Philadelphia, literally, like the Fresh Prince. So, lived in Philly until I started kindergarten, which I did in New York. So, my parents moved out to New York City when I was 5, and so pretty much all of my K12 was all in New York City.

Wes Kriesel: Wow. I mean, that’s crazy.

Phil Ling: Mm-hmm.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Okay. And then, college, you moved to Illinois.

Phil Ling: So yeah, after New York I went to Wheaton, which is in Illinois, and my dad got a job actually as a pastor out in Chicago, so we all kind of ended up going at the same time.

Wes Kriesel: Oh. Wow.

Phil Ling: Yeah, it wasn’t planned that way, but it kind of happened.

Wes Kriesel: Did you move first? You were kind of…

Phil Ling: Literally, the same time.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, okay. Wow.

Phil Ling: So, I came out in August of ‘92 and my parents moved out in I think June, so a couple of months before.

Wes Kriesel: Wow. Wow.

Phil Ling: Yeah, which happened to be that was the case.

Wes Kriesel: Okay, the part I was curious about is you’re in college, you moved out of your parents’ home because…

Phil Ling: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Okay, you moved out of your parents’ home and you started to work at a daycare, and that caused you to change majors.

Phil Ling: Mm-hmm.

Wes Kriesel: What at the daycare did you like? I mean, because daycare for me, I send my kids there, it seems a little bit stressful. What did you like about it?

Phil Ling: There was a kindergarten teacher at the daycare that I worked with, [00:04:02 Lori,] and so she was really good with the kids and so I learned a lot from her, and her influence kind of made me decide to change my major and go into education.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, that’s awesome. That’s cool. Cool.

Phil Ling: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I did that, graduated in ’96, and then I stayed in Illinois one year to sub, and I said, “You know, I’m going to go back home to New York City.” And so, I got a job in Jamaica, Queens, and it was in the inner-city area and is really just a rough area. A lot of the kids had very difficult lives. I had 31 students, sixth graders, and 30 of them were living with either their mom or their foster parent. And so, it was very eye-opening for me, a huge learning experience. I gained a lot of empathy that year for just kind of different situations people live through. So, it was a very powerful experience.

Wes Kriesel: Wow. So, you taught, how long did you teach in New York?

Phil Ling: One year.

Wes Kriesel: Okay.

Phil Ling: That was a year…

Wes Kriesel: Say more, say more about that.

Phil Ling: Uh-huh. So, that year, I mean, knowing that these kids had rough lives, it was a difficult experience for me also. I experienced a lot of adversity, whether it be from the community or even the students, I mean, kids would cuss at you and it’d be a regular thing. And so, I’d leave, coming home, pretty angry, and I didn’t like the way I felt and the way I was and the person I was becoming. So, my parents, my mom got a job out here in Brea at the credit union, the Evangelical Credit Union I think it’s called, in Brea in ’97, and so after my one year in New York I decided to follow and come out here to the West Coast and never lived here before. So, I applied to—being from the East Coast, I had no idea in terms of Southern California’s reach and the range geographically, so I was like, “Oh, Pasadena? Sure, I’ll apply there.” Colton, I never heard of Colton or Fontana.

Wes Kriesel: It’s right next to Brea.

Phil Ling: Right. So, all of these random districts I applied to and the one that calls me my third day in California was Fullerton.

Wes Kriesel: No way.

Phil Ling: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Wow.

Phil Ling: And so, actually, we were living in La Mirada, which is we were off Beach Boulevard and Rosecrans, basically, not too far from Imperial Highway. And so, Sunset Lane, which is three miles away, was the school that called me. Sue Faasen was the principal at the time, and so I met with her and then, a day later, I was offered a job in Fullerton in 1998, August.

Wes Kriesel: Wow. So, you come in with a year of teaching experience…

Phil Ling: One year, uh-huh.

Wes Kriesel: So then, kind of just give us an overview of your time in Fullerton, I mean, because I know you didn’t end up at Sunset Lane.

Phil Ling: Right. So, I taught sixth grade at Sunset from 1998 until December of 2004, and then December of 2004, Larry Beaver, the then-principal at Parks Junior High School, calls me says, “Hey, do you want to teach language arts at Parks?” And so, I’m like, “Oh, okay, I’ve never talked junior high, but I have the credential to cover ELA.” So, I’m like, “Sure, I’ll give you a shot.” So, I got there in January of ’05, and then I was there from ‘05 up until this past June, so from January ‘05 to June of 2018, for 13-14 years.

Wes Kriesel: Wow. Yeah, yeah. So, you’ve had some pretty good—I was going to say moments, but that’s ironic—moments of stability, like several years at Sunset Lane and then 13 years or so at Parks. And then, so do you transition this summer to join innovation and instructional support?

Phil Ling: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: So, how do you feel about that?

Phil Ling: I’m super-stoked to be here.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah?

Phil Ling: I’m really excited. I’m really humbled, actually, more than anything. I think being someone who is in this role of teacher support, coming in being a sixth-grade teacher, having junior high experience, I mean, our district is so vast and there are so many people, so different experiences and different roles, that coming in I realize, “You know what? I’ve got a lot to learn from our kindergarten friends, our primary friends, even fourth and fifth grade, and today’s sixth-grade classes are different.” So, more than kind of what I can support, I think I also realize, “You know what? I’ve got a lot to learn from others.” And that’s the important part for me, is that I want to come in with an attitude of humility and one that my rules work alongside teachers, not so much to kind of work over them or in that kind of way, but it’s a support role. It’s also a—there’s a synergy if you work with other teachers, you know? I gain a lot from them as much as they might gain from me.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. That’s interesting. So, I have some quotes here that people have shared with us. So, I’m going to look for one, kind of a personal one. This is interesting. We interviewed Matt Stricker. He also, when he got interviewed, he asked you to give us some information about him, so it’s interesting. It’s reciprocal. So, he brought up a moment in 2007. He said, “I was going through a really difficult time in my life?” Do you remember that?

Phil Ling: Mm-hmm.

Wes Kriesel: So, he said there was “no one in my life there for me like Phil,” and he said, “He checked on me every day to see how he’s doing. He and his family had me over for dinner, sometimes multiple times per week. He made it clear I was welcome at his home anytime, day or night. They made joy,” and you made him feel loved and valued at a time where he wasn’t really feeling like that at all. And he says, “I don’t know what I would have done.” So, tell me about that moment. How do you remember it and what did it mean to you?

Phil Ling: Well, Matt and I clicked. He came to Sunset Lane in 2001, and so we had worked together for about five or six years.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, and then you even worked at Parks together?

Phil Ling: And he came later to Parks, yeah. He moved back to Colorado for a year, and then I think it was at ’06, ’07, he came back to California. And so, in ’07, he’s going through a pretty rough time in his life personally, and his family’s all in Colorado. So, we being close for so many years, obviously, I felt, “I got to be there for my brother.” And so, we had him over a lot. We kind of talked through a lot of the pain that he was going through at the time, prayed for him a lot and just kind of saw him through the rough patch in his life, and saw him grow so much from that. And if you know Matt, you know that he’s a man of character and integrity, and so, honestly, I don’t know if I did a whole lot, really. I just walked alongside of him and it was a lot of other forces and it was a lot of him, his growth just kind of getting out of that process and that painful time to become the man he is today.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. So, talk about, so I heard twice this theme of being alongside somebody has come up, with Matt and then also it’s kind of how you said you want to work in innovation and instructional support and just be alongside teachers, not over them but learning with them. So, what does that mean to be like, sometimes people say, on the journey with someone else? How is that a part of your educational philosophy? I mean, you did it personally for Matt, you say that that’s part of how you view your role as a teacher on special assignment, but say more about that. Why is that a good approach or why is it something that you see that you’ve done in your life and other people comment on the impact it has on them? Why go that route?

Phil Ling: I think for me, the attitude that I feel like I should have, whether it be in a supportive role, a personal level, professionally, whatever might be, is one of listening because I feel like there’s so much more that people can teach me, not that I have nothing to offer anyone else. But, I think if we’re there to listen and learn and have an attitude of empathy, I think everyone wins. Everyone gains something from that exchange. And so, for me, I think I prefer listening over talking. And so, I think maybe that’s part of why people around me feel comfortable either sharing or whatever it might be because I feel like my role, more than speaking any kind of wisdom or [00:12:59 unintelligible] thoughts, is to be a listener.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. So, I had the privilege to be in your classroom before and we were filming and doing some stuff for iPersonalize, and what I remember is just a very comfortable, relaxed environment, but it also felt very, I don’t know if orchestrated is the right word, but it felt like there was a time and a place and an order and everything was sort of clicking. It felt very natural, but also planned out. It felt very orderly and organized. So, think of a time where your value of empathy, like you’ve had to demonstrate that with a student, like a particular time. Because what I saw was like it did seem like there’s a comfort level with you, but it was clear like, “Hey, we’re on an instructional train and it’s going over here.” So, sometimes empathy means you have to kind of put yourself aside and stop and listen. So, reflect on a time where you had to do that with a student, because sometimes we have so many students we’re worried about and we’re trying to get into the instructional destination. So, it’s interesting, empathy sometimes threatens to derail that, you know, and take time that you may feel like you don’t have. So, can you think of a time where…?

Phil Ling: Yeah, actually this past year. So, there was a seventh-grade student, two years ago she was in seventh grade, and she had a really rough kind of exterior. She looked tough and she had that kind of like “don’t mess with me” kind of attitude. And I didn’t really interact with the student much, but then she was in my class for eighth grade last year. And so, let’s just call her Jane, Jane Doe. Jane. And so, Jane was in my class and I had preconceived notions that she had a major attitude, she wasn’t going to work well with others. But, honestly, I just kind of had to tell myself, “You know what? Give every single person a chance. Treat everyone as if they were your own child and how you want to be treated.” So, I gave her a shot, internally, and that year, my guard for all my students kind of went down more and her guard came down quite a bit. And so, I saw her kind of share with me some of the hard times going on with her family, right after class during recess break, and she shared some things with me. And I was like, “Oh, this is different,” and I found myself being able to tell her, “Hey, Jane, you know what? I see this in you, I think you can get to this point here, you’re really close to this grade level or this grade.” And so, I found myself encouraging her more and, honestly, she was the last person I thought that I would kind of have that kind of rapport with, but by being able to listen and having more of an empathetic kind of attitude, something clicked there. And so, it was very positive and unexpected, really, that I have that kind of rapport with that student.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, that’s awesome. So, that touches base with something else that Matt said. This was his bonus feedback. So, the question was, “Anything else you’d like to share about Phil?” So, he said, “Phil will go out of his way to make people feel important and valued.” So, that resonates with that example of taking time to talk at recess. So, it’s interesting, he goes on, he says, “He’ll ask you about things that others would forget about.” So, does that ring a bell or do you know? He has more commentary here.

Phil Ling: I don’t know. I’ve got a bad memory, honestly.

Wes Kriesel: So, he says, “He’ll pick up pastries and bring them to work to celebrate your birthday.”

Phil Ling: Oh, yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Is that true?

Phil Ling: I love food. I love good food. I’m sure you know that by now.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Ling: And so, yeah, I mean if I can help someone feel better, I bring in like a croissant or maybe a specialty donut, whatever it might be.

Wes Kriesel: That’s got to be a love language right there.

Phil Ling: Yeah, food is definitely a love language. I love to I grill. I love going out to good restaurants that are well-reviewed. So, yeah, food is definitely one of my languages. And so, yeah, if I can give that little gesture and it means something to that person, then all the better.

Wes Kriesel: That’s cool. That’s cool. Okay, just one last thing from Matt, and then we’ll maybe let him go. He said you once pretended to be, he said, “He even once pretended to be me on the phone with Sprint so that he could get me a better deal on my cell plan.”

Phil Ling: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Because you’re a better negotiator than he was. Do you remember that?

Phil Ling: Not that exact [00:17:41 unintelligible]. I remember doing it for him.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, I think that’s what he’s saying.

Phil Ling: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: “He pretended to be you talking to Sprint,” or pretended to be him. So, you did that?

Phil Ling: I did, yeah.

Wes Kriesel: You said, “But, let me negotiate this for you?”

Phil Ling: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Back at a time where you can negotiate your plans, I forgot how much I talked them down but it’s probably like 30 bucks a month or something like that.

Wes Kriesel: Ooh, that’s worth it.

Phil Ling: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: That’s worth it. That’s awesome. All right. So, other people commented about being quick-witted. So, I’m not going to say any specific things, but I think the word pun came up and quick-witted. Two people said you’re quick-witted, and I know it’s true because I’ve spent time around you. But, talk about that. Like, and puns and working with language, why do you like doing that?

Phil Ling: I didn’t always.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, really?

Phil Ling: Yeah. No. When I was younger, I was pretty sarcastic, and so insults would come to me first, actually. And so, I think I’ve heard a lot of people in my younger days with my words, and it wasn’t till either late high school or early college when I realized the effect that my words were having on other people. So, I was like, “Well, how can I channel my powers to something positive?” And so, that’s where puns kind of came in. I said if I could be more encouraging or at least not discouraging, this is one way I can use my play on words.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah, I had a similar experience. Kind of grade school, junior high, I found out that I was hurting people. I think it was ninth-grade year where I went to a new school and I was just kind of, I’d been at a small private school for many years and around the same people, and then in ninth grade it was kind of a whole new set but I was still kind of making comments that were just sort of harsh. And I had this moment where I was like, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t realize I hurt so-and-so.” And so, my turn was I just shut it off. I became super—I was always shy, but I became very, very quiet.

Phil Ling: Is it true?

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, because I was like, I saw that effect, I’m like—so that was a more proactive approach on your point, is to keep using that gift but employ it in a positive way. That’s great.

Phil Ling: I’m not sure it’s a positive effect on everybody, though.

Wes Kriesel: Hey, you get people talking.

Phil Ling: That’s true.

Wes Kriesel: So, okay, we’re going to go to a quote from Laura Makely.

Phil Ling: Okay.

Wes Kriesel: So, I asked for one word, one word that would stand in for you, and she said out-of-the-box, which she hyphenated. And then said she’s an English teacher so she’s allowed to create words, but I’m not sure what she means by that. How would you interpret that, out-of-the-box? Maybe it’s related to thinking outside the box? I don’t know.

Phil Ling: Pastry box? I don’t know.

Wes Kriesel: Pastry box.

Phil Ling: I mean, I spent a year with Laura, working under Laura at Parks, and yeah, I have the greatest respect for her. She’s a great instructional leader. I mean, we got to work together on some of our school-based activities. And so, I don’t know, I guess if there’s a problem, and maybe this is the oldest child in me, but I kind of want to find a solution. I guess you can call it being a fixer.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, yeah.

Phil Ling: And so, that’s where sometimes I got to listen more than I speak sometimes. But, I kind of like just jump in and go, “If I see something wrong, I’d like to find some kind of solution for it.” So, if there’s a better way to do something, if it’s more efficient, then—maybe it’s like a Google Sheet or maybe it’s some kind of whatever technology-based strategy we can use to make something more efficient—I’m all for it. And so, maybe that’s what she’s speaking to in terms of being out of the box. But, being a problem-solver, I guess that’s kind of where I lie towards, and sometimes it may not always be the same path other people take.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. So, she gave a couple of examples actually in number two, like a moment where Phil was being Phil. She said, “There are so many moments, but they all fall under the same theme – Phil will do anything for anyone for the good of our students.” So, then she names like troubleshooting a tech issue during iReady testing as one, coming up with a great course title to breathe new life into a class, and she just says you put in the time before, during and after school to make great things happen for kids. How do you, like if you have that in your nature to see a problem and then fix it, and she’s calling you out for working before, during and after school, like how do you balance kind of self-care with that natural inclination to hop in and to work on fixing things or solving things?

Phil Ling: Yeah. It’s hard. I mean, meaning, not that it’s difficult to do work before and after school, but it’s hard to find that balance. I mean, I think if anyone says, “I’ve got the perfect balance,” then they’re lying. But, I think you go through seasons where, let’s say you have young kids and you’re caring more for your family, and I have young kids, but I think, honestly, it’s the people you work with and if you love where you work, then it makes it so much better to be invested. And I loved and I still love Parks Junior High School. There are great people there, great staff members there. The kids are wonderful. And so, it makes it easy to want to help make that school better.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. That’s awesome. And it’s interesting, we interviewed Mark Sonny from Parks and Matt—hopefully, I don’t miss anybody, but at least three teachers from Parks and they all comment on the love of the school culture, and so that’s definitely the theme that comes out. Okay, so we’re going to touch on a quote from your wife, Joy.

Phil Ling: Okay.

Wes Kriesel: So, she talks about being a meticulous planner. So, she says, “Whether it’s being involved in the wedding planning process 16 years ago, which is…”

Phil Ling: Too involved.

Wes Kriesel: “…a surprising detail to remember, or planning all of our family vacations, Phil is the most meticulous planner I know. He loves spreadsheets from vacation planning to meal plans to board game stats.” Board game stats? “You can ask him about his use of spreadsheets when we used to play Mexican Train dominoes. He loves spreadsheets,” and she put an emoji, the crying emoji. So, talk about planning. Why is that something that you are drawn towards?

Phil Ling: I wasn’t like that growing up. I think it clicked once I moved out of my parents’ home and I had to learn responsibility. I was like, “What? I’ve got to be responsible now?”

Wes Kriesel: Okay. There were no spreadsheets back then, were there?

Phil Ling: No, no. It wasn’t till actually Parks, I think, till I really delved into spreadsheets.

Wes Kriesel: Really?

Phil Ling: But, just being more—learning how to gain personal responsibility, that was where that kind of clicked when I started living on my own, and then when I got my first job, too. So, yeah, planning vacations, I like to make sure that we have all of her dogs in—I never want to run out of anything. I think, for me, having a fear of lack, lacking, is what drives me to make sure that we’re all pretty well-planned. So, for doing a food budget, I want to make sure I’ve got way more than enough food and I’ll budget X number of dollars and I’ll have every ingredient we need to plan and pack and budget all out, yeah, on a spreadsheet.

Wes Kriesel: So, that idea of being prepared and having enough, so part of that may be taking care of other people, not just yourself, personal responsibility but also sort of collective responsibility maybe. Okay, we have time for a couple of other things. So, we already know Laura Makely’s word for you is out-of-the-box, so I’m going to say word and then you’re going to guess if it was Matt’s word for you or Joy’s word for you, your wife.

Phil Ling: Okay.

Wes Kriesel: Okay, you ready?

Phil Ling: Mm-hmm.

Wes Kriesel: So, the word is “all in.”

Phil Ling: I’m going to say Stricker.

Wes Kriesel: That is your wife. Your wife said “all in.” So, what does that mean, all in? She put a slash, but I’m not going to say that word until later if you need help. Your wife says you’re all in.

Phil Ling: I’ll have to ask her tonight. I think it’s when I’m into one thing I’ll kind of put all of my energy towards it. So, whether it’s planning a vacation or if it’s doing chores, I’ll be focused on that and…

Wes Kriesel: Wow. That is impressive.

Phil Ling: Yeah. That’s another thing about me, is that I like to be clean. I don’t like having clutter or mess.

Wes Kriesel: Okay, you brought it up, so I’m just going to drop this quote.

Phil Ling: Okay.

Wes Kriesel: Matt says you can also eat dinner off of his garage floor. “This is a man who is serious about cleanliness.” So, that is true.

Phil Ling: Yeah. I think I’ve got a disease in terms of how clean I want things to be. But yeah, my garage, I used to mop my garage floors because I hated the water stains and everything. So, all my car wash supplies are in one corner and my tools here and this on the shelf. And so, I like having my garage space in my home in complete order.

Wes Kriesel: That’s awesome.

Phil Ling: So yeah, it’s a problem.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Well, I’m sure—so, talk about, how does that translate into instruction? I know that’s a jump from the garage being clean to the instruction, but that mindset of orderliness, what’s the tie-in to instruction?

Phil Ling: So, being organized, just the word organization is something I preach to the kids every year and that’s the big focus for them when they’re my classroom, is being organized. So, that could be being organized with your resources in terms of, “Is your binder organized?” or even, “Is your writing organized?” “Do you need a graphic organizer or some kind of thinking map to help you guide your thoughts?” But, I feel like being organized is half the battle and if you know what you have in front of you, then you have a better idea of where you’re going to go.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. It’s interesting. Okay, so this is the other word that we are going to share, but obviously there’s only one person left. So, Matt Stricker said—well, actually, he didn’t give us one word. He gave us two. He said, “One word to describe Phil, faithful,” and then he said selfless. And he said, “Sorry, I know that’s two.” So, just as we’re wrapping up, can you—now, I think normally in our interviews, I draw more connections to innovation and trying things that are new, and I haven’t really done that and it’s ironic because you work in innovation and instructional support. So, I’m going to put that burden on you. So yeah, themes of organization, being quick-witted, being giving and selfless and focusing on other people, listening and empathy, how do you tie those into this role of helping teachers go further down the road of innovating and trying something new and getting away from tradition and getting past fears? What do you think?

Phil Ling: Yeah. Well, I’ll speak to my past. I wasn’t always a risk-taker, honestly. It wasn’t since the past couple years. And I think when Dr. Pletka came on board in Fullerton, I think when he joined this district, I think his vision for innovation and for at the time personalized learning was huge and it kind of blew my mind. It shocked me. It kind of rocked my world in many ways and not all good, but ultimately in a really positive way because I got involved with a lot of things personalized-learning-wise with this district. And I’m really grateful to him for his impact on me for that reason because, me not being a big risk-taker back then, this mindset of innovation and this growth kind of paradigm really helped me to realize, “You know, I do have a lot to learn, like I said in the beginning, and rather than helping teachers, it’d be more like just kind of walking alongside and diving into something new together.”

Wes Kriesel: Oh, that’s cool.

Phil Ling: So, if we had that kind of mindset as a group, as a team, as a community, that it’s not one person’s burden to innovate themselves, it’s not my burden alone, it’s not every teacher in this district’s burden alone, if we share in that burden together and we walk alongside while listening, I think we can learn a lot from each other.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah and you just triggered another connection for me, is that organization, I think that helps people trust, because if they see somebody who’s leading the way and there’s clear organization, that clarity allows them to identify questions they may have that are specific and not “stupid questions.” But, with clear organization, you go, “Okay, what’s the connection between column two and column three?” and it helps the conversation move forward instead of people kind of backing way in fear. I think that organization helps build the trust factor.

Phil Ling: Mm-hmm.

Wes Kriesel: So, that’s good. I’m going to work on my organization. All right, well, Phil, that is the time. We’re at 30 minutes and it’s been great. So, thank you very much.

Phil Ling: Thirty minutes already?

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Phil Ling: Oh my gosh.

Wes Kriesel: It flew by. It flew by. All right, thanks, Phil.

Phil Ling: Thanks, Wes. Appreciate it.

Outro: This has been the Teacher Interview Podcast. Thank you for joining us.

[00:31:23]