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Intro: Welcome to the Teacher Interview Podcast. I’m your host, Wes Kriesel. I work as Director of Innovation and Instructional Support in Fullerton School District, and every week we sit down and get to know a teacher better. My goal is to learn what drives and guides teachers, especially when venturing into that risky territory of trying something new. Join me. In this episode, we talk to Sarah Spero. She teaches fourth grade at Sunset Elementary.

Wes Kriesel: All right, Sarah, thanks for joining the podcast. I’m so excited to interview you. You were recommended by Matt Mankiewicz, who’s been, I think he was the very first interview on the podcast, I think.

Sarah Spero: He was [00:00:56 unintelligible]

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Yeah, and I’m gratified that you said you’ve listened, and so that’s exciting. So, without further ado, we’re going to do something new on the podcast, is at the end I’m going to ask for your ideas on how we can improve the podcast or what’s missing, what we do too much of or just like to disrupt a little bit. So, I’m looking forward to that, and we already started kind of going down that path, so it’s cool. The first question is just like, why teaching? What was that like for you? Where did do your teacher education and how’d you end up here?

Sarah Spero: Yes, well, so I went to high school in Hawaii. We moved there between my freshman and sophomore year and it was a huge…

Wes Kriesel: Oh, wow. Was that a tough change?

Sarah Spero: It was a very tough change. It was a culture shock to say the least, and Hawaiians or people who live in Hawaii are very like us, tightknit, family-oriented, close-circled, and we were moving from Texas, so I was different than everyone in every way and I felt like an outcast for a long time. It was something that I had felt before, certainly, but it just had this whole new deep layer for me, that experience, and when it was time for me to go to college I wanted to move. I didn’t want to move, actually. My parents insisted that I move back to California.

Wes Kriesel: Wow. Really?

Sarah Spero: Yes, because they knew that they weren’t going to be in Hawaii forever and they did not want us to like fall in love and get married and live in Hawaii and be an ocean apart.

Wes Kriesel: That sounds perfect because then you could go visit.

Sarah Spero: They were like, “You go back. We’re coming back.” Yes, right. So, my mom brought me to California. We had gone college-shopping. We had picked a school. I went to Vanguard University, was called Southern California College at the time, in Costa Mesa.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, I didn’t know that. Okay, yeah.

Sarah Spero: Uh-huh. So, she came, she took me to Target, she got all my stuff, she bought me a bicycle, and then it was like three days later she was going to get in that rental car and go back to Hawaii. And I was like hanging on the door frame freaking out, like a 2-year-old tantrum, yelling, “Don’t leave me, don’t leave me,” crying, sobbing.

Wes Kriesel: You weren’t yelling literally?

Sarah Spero: I was literally losing it.

Wes Kriesel: You were losing it.

Sarah Spero: And my mom looked at me and said, “Do not embarrass yourself in front of all those people,” because it was in the middle of campus.

Wes Kriesel: Great advice.

Sarah Spero: Closed the door, backed out, went home. And I was like, “Oh, dear.” So, I ended up majoring in cultural anthropology. So, I was very fascinated with the study of people, with how culture influences our personality, with that relationship between society and who you really are. So, I was interested, too, in psychology, but I think that our environment has a very powerful role in who we are as people, so I took that route. And I thought it was going to—I’ve always wanted to save the world or at least since college I’ve wanted to save the world. [00:04:19 I think it’s probably a place…]

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. It’s a good ambition.

Sarah Spero: Mm-hmm. So, I was going to go to Africa and…

Wes Kriesel: Do work there or something.

Sarah Spero: Right. So, I wanted to figure out how to get Africans to wear condoms to help prevent AIDS. And so, I had read somewhere one time that they would reject this like protection for themselves because of their cultural beliefs about it, and so how can we present it in a way that would be culturally acceptable? Anyways, I thought that was a fascinating idea and I was like, “I’m going to figure it out.” I had been to India between high school and college, so with all my heart to like go and do this. But, at the same time, that same year my parents moved from, well, they had been living in San Francisco and they were moving, retiring, and then they were going to be moving again. And I just had this like, “Oh my gosh, I’m never going to have a home. My parents still live in Hawaii. I don’t belong there. I don’t belong where they are going to move to. I don’t belong in San Francisco. I don’t belong where I was born in Wichita. I don’t belong anywhere, and if I leave here, I’m really never going to belong anywhere.” So, I sort of had another, I didn’t literally scream and cry in the middle of the campus, but emotionally I was screaming and crying.

Wes Kriesel: There’s a pattern that I’m picking up.

Sarah Spero: Yes. I’m having a meltdown, like, “What am I going to do? if I follow this dream, I’m never going to have a home to come back to.” And so, I was expressing this to the wife of the cultural anthropology head of the department, and she said—she was the head of the education department—and she said, “Well why don’t you just save a classroom in Santa Ana? Because I can get you hired right now.” It was the year that the schools were going to 20:1, 1997, in Santa Ana. So, I got hired on an emergency credential. I’d never been in a classroom, an elementary school classroom, since I was in elementary school.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Oh, gosh.

Sarah Spero: And so, I showed up and I learned how to teach. Basically, so I taught at Taft Elementary in Santa Ana.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, yeah. I used to work in Santa Ana, so I know the district.

Sarah Spero: Yes. So, it was built in the seventies or sixties. It was an open school. There were no walls. So, they had kind of by this time had makeshift or like bookcases that they would use to divide spaces up, but they had turned four second-grade classrooms into six second-grade classrooms by just pushing the bookcases out kind of and creating six spaces. So, I was in the middle on one side and, when I stood and taught, I could see the brand-new second-grade teacher on the other side. Her name was [00:07:11 Becky.] We were instant friends because neither one of us knew—well, she had always wanted to be a teacher, so she knew a lot more than I did, but we were still both new. So, all my questions, I’d go to her. If she wondered, too, we’d go to someone else. But, I would just learn. I just learned how to teach from seeing her teaching all day, essentially.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. That’s wild.

Sarah Spero: Yeah, and I love new things.

Wes Kriesel: And that’s not usually how people get introduced to teaching. It’s usually isolated.

Sarah Spero: Right.

Wes Kriesel: But, it’s funny, I started teaching 1995. It was the 20:1 thing a few years later in Rialto. My first classroom was a special learning classroom divided by bookcases. Three of us, three teachers, two veterans and me, and so mostly they would look at me and then point out things I should or shouldn’t do. But, it’s so wild that you had that experience, too, of like this odd community.

Sarah Spero: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: Interesting. Okay. So, from Taft, then how did you get to Fullerton? Anything else?

Sarah Spero: I taught in Santa Ana for seven years. I had another life crisis, essentially.

Wes Kriesel: Okay, okay. This is good. I love life crises. It’s interesting.

Sarah Spero: Yeah, yes. Yes, I’ll connect it at the end. It has a lot to do with why I think that I’m sitting in this chair talking to you.

Wes Kriesel: Okay.

Sarah Spero: So, I had another life crisis. I had a son in 2004. He’s 15. He goes to Sunny Hills. He’s an amazing human being. I had him, and then I got pregnant like seven weeks later and had a daughter, who is also an amazing human being. She’s at Parks. I adore my kids. But, at the time, when I got pregnant with her, it was like too much for me to handle because their dad, we’ve ended up getting divorced since then, but at the time he was out of work and I was, so I had just given birth and I was supposed to be going back to work six weeks later and I find out I’m pregnant. And it was like, “I can’t do this.” We had been in a house for one year in Costa Mesa, so we had this like new, “We’re going to grow into this,” mortgage that then when he had lost his job, I was very overwhelmed.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, understandably.

Sarah Spero: Yes. I was like, “Uh-uh, I cannot do all of this, like all three of you. I can’t do it.”

Wes Kriesel: All three of you.

Sarah Spero: Yeah. So, we moved to Menifee. Do you know where that is, near Temecula?

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I do.

Sarah Spero: We moved there. I took a leave of absence from Santa Ana and we moved there, and then I didn’t work for about a year and a half and then I started subbing in the Menifee School District. And then, when we got divorced, I got hired by a private school and my kids started school, or Max had started kindergarten at that school, but it was not enough income. So, I was like, I took the job but I was looking, looking, looking, looking, and it was when they were not hiring anybody anywhere. So, it was in two thousand, let’s see—four, five, six, seven, eight, nine—2009.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Spero: Yeah. So, I did end up getting hired at Temecula Preparatory Academy, which is a charter school in Temecula, and I worked there for a little while. And then, I had another event that led to another crisis, which ended up landing me in Fullerton. So, we moved to Fullerton in 2012, and then I started subbing at Hermosa, which is where my kids went to elementary school. We moved here. I put them in school there. And then, let’s see, maybe after we’d been here about six months, I started subbing and then ended up getting hired at Sunset Lane.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, that’s great. It’s interesting, for the number of crises—I think that’s plural—that you’ve mentioned, the people I interviewed, they didn’t throw that word in there. So, that’s not the type of person you are. Maybe you’ve had those experiences, but you’re not a crisis-prone person according to people.

Sarah Spero: No. Okay, so I will say, I do think that sometimes what we are best at really is a product of working hard to overcome a weakness. So, I think that all of the things people would say that were good about me is intentions I’ve set to be that.

Wes Kriesel: Hmm. Yeah, that’s interesting. Yeah, and there can be, and it’s interesting to have this discussion because you’ve been very open, like there can be a way that through difficulties you had you’re able to help people in a way that you couldn’t if you hadn’t been through difficulties.

Sarah Spero: Right. Exactly. So, people do describe me as judgment-free or they’ll say it to me like, “I could tell you anything. I don’t understand why I’ve just told you my life story.”

Wes Kriesel: You’re like, “Please, don’t.”

Sarah Spero: No, actually, I like holding space for people.

Wes Kriesel: You’re like, “Bring it on?”

Sarah Spero: Like, “I can hold this space so you can fall apart or do whatever it is you need to do, and I’m just going to remind you at the end that you are an amazing human being.”

Wes Kriesel: Oh.

Sarah Spero: And honestly—well, I lost my train of thought. But, I think that, I don’t know if I’m jumping too far ahead, but I think that innovation comes from being willing to take a risk, and I think I am willing to take risks because I’ve failed enough in my life that I’m not afraid of it anymore and I really don’t care so much. I think maybe that’s a part of getting older that you know what people think. I am going to show up and be myself regardless of what anybody around me is thinking [00:13:20 unintelligible].

Sarah Spero: Yeah. So, that’s actually a good segue to one of the words, one of the questions I’ve asked them. We have input from Claudia, a colleague; Tracy, your principal; and Nancy, a friend. So, one of the words that Tracy actually threw out there because I asked, “What’s one word that represents Sarah?” and she said courageous. So, can you tie that to like what you just said about, “I show up and I’m,” what was the word you said? You said, “I don’t worry about what other people think.” So, how is that tied to courage, you think, from Tracy’s point of view?

Sarah Spero: Courageous.

Wes Kriesel: Or, is it?

Sarah Spero: Yes, I definitely think so. I am willing to try anything and I don’t have to know how to do it before I’m willing to try it. In fact, it’s actually way more interesting, way more interesting to get into something and figure out how to make it work.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, that’s interesting. Hmm.

Sarah Spero: Because, if you already know how to do it, then why are you doing it? That’s what it seems like to me. If you already know how to make iMovies with your students, then, I mean, sure, you can teach it to them, but it doesn’t ignite anything inside you and I believe kids feed off of our energy.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, so interesting. Okay, so right there, that means potentially once you’ve mastered something…

Sarah Spero: Oh, I move on pretty quick.

Wes Kriesel: So, how does that—because I would think, or a position to take would be, “Well, my students next year need this experience because it’s so great.” Let’s say iMovie. But, when you move on, then the next-year students are doing something totally different.

Sarah Spero: It’s a little helpful that technology is moving so fast that what you were doing seven years ago is not relevant.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, and outdated. Yeah.

Sarah Spero: I do find a lot of value in tradition and in that like stability that comes from like knowing what you’re doing. It is very important. It’s not why I’m on this planet, but I definitely want people like that in my life because I know it’s very valuable and I think…

Wes Kriesel: I think there’s something there, too, like the phrase about you have to know the rules first before you break them.

Sarah Spero: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: So, that’s kind of a tip of the hat to that, is tradition, structure, all these things are important and you don’t disregard and dismiss it. But like you said, it’s not why you’re on the planet but you have a healthy respect for it, and then you build off of it and launch new ideas off of what’s already been done or the right way.

Sarah Spero: Yes.

Wes Kriesel:  Yeah. Cool. Let me read another, I think, a story here. Yeah, let’s go to—okay. So, this from Claudia, and the question was like a significant moment where Sarah’s being Sarah. And so, of course she said, “Choosing just one moment is tough, but I respect her a lot because she actually did the assignment I gave her.” So, she said, “I once had a family emergency during the school day and she took my entire class and kept them busy, on task, cared for, and happy, until someone was able to come and take over.” Do you remember that?

Sarah Spero: I think it’s when we were teaching TK together. So, when I got hired by Fullerton, I had subbed at Hermosa, I had subbed at Beechwood, and then I came to Sunset Lane and I got hired in a TK class, and she was on my interview panel.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, really?

Sarah Spero: Mm-hmm, with the principal at the time, and we taught right next door to each other, so we were teammates. And I have learned so much from her, and of course, I would take her entire class. I mean, yes.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, that’s interesting.

Sarah Spero: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: What’s interesting to me is you’re like, “Yeah, I think it must be this time.” It wasn’t like, “Oh yeah, I know exactly.” So, that tells me something also about the type of person because somebody could say, “Yeah, I remember that because I stepped in and saved the day or whatever.” But, to you, it’s just like, “Yeah, I think it sounds like something I did.”

Sarah Spero: [00:17:52 unintelligible]

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Sarah Spero: Yeah, I want to say a few more things about teaching TK with Claudia, if it’s okay.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, please.

Sarah Spero: So, I had taught preschool in that year between high school and college. I took a year off. That’s when I went to India. I also taught preschool, but I had not been in any preschool environment since then. And I was like, “TK, oh my gosh, what is this?” I was researching quick and it was based off the Reggio Emilia philosophy, so I did not know what that was and I had to get in it and figure it out. So, he has a quote that says, “Nothing without joy,” and it’s stuck with me from reading about the philosophy. And Claudia, we write it down and share post-it notes all the time, like encouraging things, and that’s one of our things that we’ll trade, is the word joy, and it has to come first. It has to come both—like I think I’m on the planet, I think I’m a teacher, not to make students, because we don’t need people who can add and subtract, not really. I’m on the planet or I’m a teacher to make people, like a whole person, not a student but all the parts of who they are, and you can’t move through life without understanding like where your joy comes from. It has to be present first before you’re going to build relationships, help your community, do a job with any grace or dignity. We are social human beings. The connection between people is primarily the essence of everything we’re doing. So, if your experience is joyless—and not that we’re always happy because I am not always happy. I sing sad songs all day long. I definitely embrace the not joyful times, too, but there is joy in the hard or in the difficult or in the painful things because it’s all part of life, right?

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Spero: Like that yin-yang, good and bad? It’s all there together. It has to be together or it’s not going to be real.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Let me ask this. You said the word embrace, so I’m going to come back to that. But, you said joy has to come first…

Sarah Spero: That’s the quote, “Nothing without joy,” like you can’t go anywhere, nothing before joy. It has to be present first before you move forward.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. So, in the classroom, how do you actualize that or practice that? What does that look like or what’s a practical thing you might do that somebody else would not have thought of?

Sarah Spero: Right. I don’t know. I’m not an expert at it. I am practicing how. I don’t see myself as like a master or even that good at it.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. So, how do you practice?

Sarah Spero: But, I practice—okay. So, students have to want to come to school. If they don’t want to come to school, then they’re coming half-heartedly, they’re disengaged, they’re pooh-poohing what you’re doing…

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, I forgot, what grade do you teach right now?

Sarah Spero: Fourth.

Wes Kriesel: Oh my gosh.

Sarah Spero: Fourth grade. And a lot of this thinking has come from my own son, well, and daughter. So, when we moved to Fullerton, my daughter was in the nurse’s office every single day with a stomachache. And it was just anxiety, but she could not learn until somebody addressed or we all addressed what was going on with her emotionally. And Christine Villalobos was her second-grade teacher, and she’s the one who helped me get Grace back to her joy so she could learn.

Wes Kriesel: Hmm. Wow.

Sarah Spero: And then, my son had gone through elementary school like loving, loving, loving school, like hanging on teachers’ words. He was in it all the way, a very wholehearted student. And then, he got to junior high and that changed quickly for him. I think it’s maybe common for kids to go through that at that age, but it was painful to me because I felt like, “Where is my son’s joy? If he doesn’t even want to be in school, he is not learning.” So, it is my number one objective, is that my kids want to come to my classroom.

Wes Kriesel: So, give me a practical like…

Sarah Spero: I always stand at the door. I say good morning to them. I do greet my students every day. I care about what they want to do, so I am list—part of the reason why I don’t do anything twice or I’m constantly and willing to try new things is because that interest level of the students matters. So, we can get the standards a billion ways, but the path has to be one that they’ve chosen that they’re engaged in, excited about, and it has to be adding to their sense of self. It has to be letting them believe that they are going to make a difference in the world and that there’s a reason why they’re learning this.

Sarah Spero: Yeah. How does that sound or look like when you’re interacting with your class or maybe just a group of students or maybe just one student? What is something you find yourself saying to get to that point where the student has to want to learn? Because a lot of times people think about, “I have to do X, Y, and Z,” which you’re not about this…

Sarah Spero: Okay, I actually hadn’t thought of this before. I do think that kids need to feel understood. I do a lot of reflecting. I learned once that if you want to help an autistic child or a tantruming 2-year-old that one of the ways you can do that is to reflect what they’re saying. So, they’re yelling for chicken and you are repeating “chicken, chicken, chicken” so that they feel heard first. So, I do make an attempt to make sure my kids are heard first. Like, “I can see that you’re not smiling this morning. I want to hear you. What’s going on?” Or, when they come off the playground upset at each other because somebody knocked the ball out or they called them out or whatever their myriad of complaints are when they come off of the playground, I take time, even though it’s challenging, to listen or to at least say, “I want to hear you. Could you write it in a note?” or “I’m going to come back to you. Let’s get started.” But, they do know that I’m going to listen first to what they have to say. And I think that when they’re heard—what were you asking me?

Wes Kriesel: So, how do you make the student…I think we’re talking about the…

Sarah Spero: Oh, get engaged, feel happy?

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, they have to want to learn, and so what’s something you do?

Sarah Spero: Yes. So, I guess I think that all students intrinsically want to learn, and so if they’re not interested, there’s something off in how they are feeling in the space or about themselves or that there’s something from home or from whatever’s on their mind. So, you just have to address that first.

Wes Kriesel: So, it’s almost like, and I’ll just throw out a metaphor, like a musical instrument, like a guitar. A guitar properly situated will play a chord, but if it’s out of tune, that’s kind of like the emotional distress or distraction.

Sarah Spero: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: You can put your fingers in the right place and play the right strings and it won’t produce that chord because it’s not tuned to kind of like its intrinsic state.

Sarah Spero: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: And so, you’re saying people, or at least young people, intrinsically will want to learn, and if they aren’t engaging, then you’re like, “There’s some like emotional fine-tuning that we can sort of explore to put them back in an optimal state.”

Sarah Spero: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: That’s really interesting, yeah. Yeah, it’s interesting. So, one trick or one technique is just asking them like, “How are you feeling?” or “What’s happening?” And it’s interesting, you talked about like at least three different time-management strategies. “Can you write it to me in a note?” “Can we talk about it later?” Because my head, it’ll just jump right to like…

Sarah Spero: We can’t afford to [00:27:04 sit all day long.]

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. There are multiple things that happen on the playground. Probably seven students want to talk to you. There’s a lesson starting in 30 seconds.

Sarah Spero: Yeah. Yes. I do also find that students are able, after you’ve listened to them, after they feel like it’s okay to have a feeling, to express it. They get better. I find my students over the course of a year get better at handling things themselves or letting things go.

Wes Kriesel: Hmm. That’s interesting. Oh, that’s interesting.

Sarah Spero: Mm-hmm.

Wes Kriesel: Say more about that. Why? What happens over time?

Sarah Spero: So, I’m going to add one more thing. So, feeling heard, there’s some sort of honoring of who the person is and all of the parts of them. So, we have that difficult student. We all have the one that’s going to make us pull our hair out that year. Those difficult students, it’s very easy in a classroom to get to be like, “Well, there goes so-and-so again. I’m sure…” you know? And I feel very strongly about changing that narrative. So, I will voice for that student what they’re experiencing, like sort of the why, why they’ve gotten to the point where they come in in fourth grade and are like poking their neighbor incessantly. So, I don’t necessarily know how I figure it out, but I do get to know them enough that I can sort of create a voice where it’s okay to be who they are. And so, it really changes how the person is. There’s not so much shame in their misbehavior because it’s okay. We can acknowledge that that happened and then that you didn’t want it to happen, and there doesn’t have to be so much shame in our actions, because I’ve done some pretty dumb things in my life.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, I mean, it reminds me of, and we have referenced students getting disengaged with school, but it reminds me of the stories of, and you’ve actually told a couple, but like your son is at a certain point they felt like, “The teacher doesn’t like me…”

Sarah Spero: Yes, exactly.

Wes Kriesel: And it’s probably not a message…

Sarah Spero: Whether they did or didn’t, it’s his perception.

Wes Kriesel: Right, yeah, and it’s probably not, “The teacher doesn’t like my personality,” it’s probably a message of disapproval, right? “I don’t like what you’re doing.” And so, there’s that shame, and now I feel like you are rejecting me.

Wes Kriesel: Right. So, we can teach kids how to behave appropriately in a classroom without making them feel bad about who they are.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Sarah Spero: And that is not easy, I mean I don’t necessarily know how to help teachers do that, but it’s really important. It’s really important because we live in a world where it is really easy to hurt one another and, you know, “hurt people” hurt people.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Sarah Spero: Those kids are hurting. That’s why they’re acting out.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, and it’s real.

Sarah Spero: It’s real.

Wes Kriesel: I mean, in let’s say fourth grade, you don’t necessarily have the tools to go, “My pain is real and I’m entitled to X, Y, and Z.” I mean, you’re just like, “Aah!”

Sarah Spero: Yes. Yes.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. This has been really, really good and really interesting. We’re getting close to the end of our time. So, there’s one person we haven’t heard from in terms of the preparation I did, so Nancy, and I said I was going to come back to this word, embrace. So, that was actually the word she chose for you, so embrace, and then she explained it. So, there’s quite a bit here, there’s a little paragraph, so I kind of want to read that and then have you reflect on that, or you can stop me at any point.

Sarah Spero: Okay.

Wes Kriesel: So, she says the one that sticks out, the one word, is embrace. So, she says, “Sarah is a yes, not to be confused with a pushover. Sarah’s yes is open-minded, compassionate and conscious. You want to experience your own life as well as the lives of others on a deeper level. The yes is to embracing life, helping people, giving chances, thinking outside the box, and making a difference. I watched her step up with her heart more times than I can count with her own kids, children at school, friends, family, community, the disadvantaged, and her own personal growth.” Actually, I’m going to stop right there. What is that line, “I watched her step up with her heart?” How do you react to that?

Sarah Spero: So, aside from making me want to cry, I think…

Wes Kriesel: Which is okay on the podcast.

Sarah Spero: Yeah, it’s okay.

Wes Kriesel: Or, we could just tell people. She’s crying. She’s crying. You can’t see it, but…

Sarah Spero: So, I am committed to myself to be my real person. So, I think I spent a lot of time in my childhood sort of hiding and I just don’t want to live that way, so we are going to get the real me and what I really think.

Wes Kriesel: And that was validated. Someone else said authentic, like every day you’re authentic. I think that was Tracy.

Sarah Spero: Yeah. I have had people say that to me before. I guess I can’t watch someone drown in their own emotions, so I’m going to come right next to you and feel all the feelings you’re feeling and hold on with you so that you can like…

Wes Kriesel: So, like a real deep empathy. Sometimes empathy means sort of this like, “I see them, I see that,” but to come alongside somebody and say, “I’m going to…”

Sarah Spero: Well, I think Brene Brown has a video of the difference between empathy and sympathy. Have you seen it?

Wes Kriesel: I think I have.

Sarah Spero: So, sympathy’s like looking at someone in the bottom of the pit from the top and saying, Oh, you know, I’m really sorry that you’re down there,” and empathy is when you get down in the pit with them, and I’m going to get down in the pit with you.

Wes Kriesel: Wow, yeah, which is like that’s a hard position to hold.

Sarah Spero: That’s why Tracy says courageous, because it’s actually scary down there, for sure.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Yeah, because we all have our own stuff going on, which is plenty, and then to get down in the pit with somebody else’s taxing, tiring, daunting—you know, if you did that for everybody, and you’re a teacher so you’re around many people, then that seems overwhelming.

Sarah Spero: Yes, yes. So, then self-care gets really important. You have to take care of yourself, too.

Wes Kriesel: Okay, so that’s maybe a good note to kind of wrap up on, is, how do you then as that kind of empathic person who’s going to give and give and give, what does self-care look like?

Sarah Spero: I take long fasts, I do yoga, I meditate, I pray, I eat, I eat…

Wes Kriesel: Food is always good.

Sarah Spero: Food is always good. And I let people show up for me, too.

Wes Kriesel: Hmm. That’s a great quality because there are people I think who get kind of hardened to, “I’m going to be there for you and you and you and you and you,” and then they become almost like a soldier of saving people, and you can’t be refreshed and sustain your work if you’re never receiving.

Sarah Spero: Right.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. That’s really good.

Sarah Spero: Those three people, the names I gave you, they show up for me.

Wes Kriesel: Oh. That’s such a—oh, I want to cry. That’s beautiful.

Sarah Spero: [00:35:14 unintelligible] there’s more of them out there, yeah.

Wes Kriesel: And I just want to say, it’s a hard—I mean, you’re very vulnerable and, like you said, you’re not perfect and you don’t have it figured out, but it’s almost like you’re saying, “This is a balance that I strive for, and we don’t always have perfect balance. Sometimes I trip and stumble.” And that’s a risky position to say, “I’m going to always strive for balance,” rather than, “I’m going to sit down. I’m going to sit this one out.” I’m picturing a tightrope. I don’t know if that’s an appropriate metaphor, but that’s like, it’s scary, it’s high up, there’s falling, there’s risk involved. I did say that I was going to let you suggest ways to improve the podcast. This has been fabulous, by the way, and I don’t know if it’s your cultural anthropology major, like I felt like, “Oh, this is a different tone.” It’s very humanistic and philosophical. It’s very enjoyable. But, as a listener to the podcast, what’s something you think we could do to change it up or in year two? Or, soon we’ll be in year two and, I don’t know. Any thoughts about what you like or don’t like? You can name my name but don’t name anybody else.

Sarah Spero: So, I would be interested as a listener into hearing other qualities, like besides risk-taking, innovation, what are some of the other qualities that make a good teacher? And then, I would love to hear something about—so, my school’s book club read A Mindset for Learning and there are five traits on the cover. I’ll see if I can remember them. I think it’s persistence, resiliency, risk-taking. I’m going to butcher this. There’s five of them, and I think the idea is that these are the traits that we want to teach our kids so that they are absorbing information. Okay, so what I’m going to suggest is that what makes good teachers is that they’re willing to learn, which is I think part of what makes you an innovator, is you’re willing to learn something new, willing to take a—don’t we teach that, growth mindset? You have to be able to take a risk to learn something new and fail at it.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Spero: So, I think above the like innovation/risk-taking question is the “what makes a person a learner,” because I think teaching is actually the willingness to learn, to learn about the people around you, to learn like new things all the time. So, those qualities is what this one author would suggest are the qualities of a learner, and so looking at those maybe?

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, I love that. I think I do see that in a lot of the people we’ve had on the podcast, there is, sometimes it’s manufactured, like a teacher learns how to go, “Oh, show me that!” like that curiosity and wonder, but I think in the most sustainable examples, it’s just kind of part of your mindset and how you see the world and finding curiosity and wonder and magic in somebody else’s learning. So, that’s really interesting, like what makes our teachers learners or, yeah, and it’s almost like that oxymoron like past models have taught us, like the sage on the stage, like you’re supposed to know it all, you’re like an expert in your field. So, that’s interesting. I just looked at the book A Mindset for Learning.

Sarah Spero: Mm-hmm.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, one of the words in the subtitle is joy, or joyful.

Sarah Spero: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Sarah Spero: Do they have all the—yes, there’s five. Can you see that?

Wes Kriesel: I don’t see the summary.

Sarah Spero: If you can…

Wes Kriesel: Oh, right here.

Sarah Spero: Oh yeah, optimism, persistence, flexibility, resilience, and empathy.

Wes Kriesel: That’s interesting.

Sarah Spero: And I can see all those things in my life. People tell me I’m optimistic. It’s funny because I think I’m actually a pessimist, which I don’t understand why people think I’m an optimist, but I hear that.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. That’s great.

Sarah Spero: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Well, thank you for the feedback. Thank you for spending time with us and it’s been great.

Sarah Spero: Yeah, it’s nice to be here. Thank you [00:39:51 unintelligible].

Outro: This has been the Teacher Interview Podcast. Thank you for joining us.

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