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Intro: Welcome to the Teacher Interview Podcast. I’m your host, Wes Kriesel. I work as Director of Innovation and Instructional Support in Fullerton School District, and every week we sit down and get to know a teacher better. My goal is to learn what drives and guides teachers, especially when venturing into that risky territory of trying something new. Join me. Today we spend time with Emily McDougal. Amy Sylvester. She works at Beechwood School in Fullerton California.

Wes Kriesel: Welcome, Emily McDougal.

Emily McDougal: Thank you.

Wes Kriesel: Did I pronounce that correctly?

Emily McDougal: You did, yes.

Wes Kriesel: Okay. So, you’re here and you’ve just learned that this is a podcast.

Emily McDougal: Right.

Wes Kriesel: You thought it was an interview but it’s really a podcast.

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: And this is not the first time I’m going to say this, but I need to do a better job at communicating what you’re actually getting into. So, let’s start kind of general. We’re going to talk about risk-taking and innovation, but let’s start more like, how did you get into teaching just with kind of general background of like, what was that like for you? Tell us that story.

Emily McDougal: Okay. It was at the end of college that—I mean, I had no education classes under my belt at all by the time I graduated college.

Wes Kriesel: Where did you go to college?

Emily McDougal: UC Irvine.

Wes Kriesel: Me too!

Emily McDougal: Really?

Wes Kriesel: What year?

Emily McDougal: I graduated in 2000, right?

Emily McDougal: Okay. Never mind. I’m not going to tell you.

Emily McDougal: No?

Wes Kriesel: No, I was ’92, okay?

Emily McDougal: Okay, great. Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: We weren’t there together.

Emily McDougal: No. Just missed each other. But yeah, so I went to UC Irvine and I had done everything under sociology and political science, and I had done an internship in DC and I thought that was the route I was going to take.

Wes Kriesel: An internship for? What did you do in DC?

Emily McDougal: I worked for the House of Committee on Africa and I did tours of the Capitol Building, and I really enjoyed politics and thought that would be where I would—that’s where I saw myself going up until like the very end of my senior year in college, and then I had to kind of change course because I felt…

Emily McDougal: The House Committee on Africa?

Emily McDougal: The House of Committee on Africa.

Wes Kriesel: House of Committee. Does that mean you knew about things—were you just in tours or were you getting exposure to…?

Emily McDougal: Both. I would get exposure with the process, just kind of how the whole legislative aide process worked and attending hearings and going here and there with the different members of that subcommittee, and so it was really interesting.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. So, you would know more things about Africa than somebody who didn’t do that?

Emily McDougal: I’m not going to say that.

Wes Kriesel: Okay. That’s fair. That’s fair.

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Okay, so forward back to UC, leaving college, then how?

Emily McDougal: Mm-hmm. So, I needed a part-time job and somebody came to the sorority house and said she was a principal at Harbor View Elementary down at Corona del Mar and she was an alumna, and she said, “Hey, you know, I really need somebody to come and do some work in classrooms?” And I’m like, I needed some money and I needed the part-time job and my schedule allowed it, and so I said, “Okay, yeah.” So, she hired me and I was paid for it out of like PTA funds and it was this very…

Wes Kriesel: Was it tutoring or what kind of work?

Emily McDougal: It was classroom-aide work, pulling kids, working with students, playground duty, then I’d go in the office and do some things, and I just fell in love with the interaction I had with people and the type of people I had interaction with, like with students and with their parents and with office staff and all of support staff.

Wes Kriesel: So, this is the year you’re going to graduate this happened?

Emily McDougal: This was like May.

Wes Kriesel: And then, what was the next step for you?

Emily McDougal: And then, so after that, I worked through the summer and realized, “Well, I just graduated and now I have to go and take more classes to continue to get my credential and take all of those education courses.” So, I really had to—it was like starting from square one. My parents were like, “Great job, Em. So proud.”

Wes Kriesel: And where did you do those courses?

Emily McDougal: So, I went to National. I worked full-time. I had to get a job, so I worked in human resources as an assistant. I wasn’t a generalist or anything.

Wes Kriesel: So, the people who are listening to this podcast, one thing you may not know, Emily keeps rolling her eyes. When you said, “I worked in human resources,” there was another phrase you say where you were just rolling your eyes, like, “Can you believe it?” like, “I can’t believe I did that.” But, so you’re out of college, you’re taking a full-time load to get your teaching credential, how’d you get in HR?

Emily McDougal: Right. My friend who had gone to college and then pursued what her degree was in, she had this job in an assisted living management company and she was leaving to get hired on at a really great company down in Irvine, and they needed somebody to fill her spot. She’s like, “Well, my friend who, you know, she’s kind of starting over now—she just graduated from college—she needs a job. So, maybe you could hire her. She’ll show up on time. She’ll do her job.” So, I was doing that, and then I was going to go into National at night for the credential classes and taking the CBEST and trying to get just position so I could at least be subbing and have more flexibility. So, as soon as I could do that, I applied to Fullerton and Long Beach and LA Unified and I was subbing all over. And so, I was only at that position for maybe eight months before then I had my subbing going on, and after that, that next summer, I was hired in La Unified teaching at 24th Street Elementary School. They don’t know what they did. They were just like, “Here, have a key to a classroom.”

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, “Come in, [00:05:59 unintelligible].”

Emily McDougal: “Here’s 20 kids. Bye!”

Wes Kriesel: Wow.

Emily McDougal: And so, that’s when I started teaching, was at 24th Street, and it was like I was 22 years old. It was ridiculous.

Emily McDougal: Yeah. I don’t know LA that well, but the numbered streets to me are off Harbor Freeway…

Emily McDougal: Uh-huh. Yeah, [00:06:16 unintelligible] USC.

Wes Kriesel: Okay.

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. I do know the neighborhood.

Emily McDougal: Okay, yeah. Great neighborhood.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Emily McDougal: The Adams District was—

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Emily McDougal: Yeah. Really beautiful community.

Wes Kriesel: Cool. So, tell us, from LA you came back to Fullerton?

Emily McDougal: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: Okay.

Emily McDougal: Yes. The drive was a lot.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Emily McDougal: Was a lot, and there were a lot of factors going on just with the district at that time was kind of in turmoil. I mean, it was a huge district and I was in District E, and there was a lot of principal turnover at the school and they didn’t have any sort of new teacher induction program. So, it was interesting, and the parents eventually took over that school. So, this was when there was class size reduction, so they were hiring a lot and it was 20:1, and I think when I was there there were three different principals. It was a year-round school on a Concept 6 program, which was on four, off two – on four months, off two months. So, I knew I needed something that would give me a little bit more room for professional growth and support so I could do a better job, because I knew I was like just put in a room teaching kids and I was doing what I could but, yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. So then, let’s fast-forward to now.

Emily McDougal: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: When you look at this point back to the time when you came to Fullerton, what—I don’t want to say year—what experience stands out to you as, “That’s the highlight for me of my time here in Fullerton,” so a teaching experience in Fullerton where you just kind of light up when you think about it?

Emily McDougal: I think it took place within a grade-level team and I’m thinking of one single experience.

Wes Kriesel: Mm-hmm.

Emily McDougal: I don’t know, but it was definitely the time when we were all applying for Cotsen and there was a group, my grade-level team…

Wes Kriesel: Just define Cotsen if people don’t know that.

Emily McDougal: Okay. So, Cotsen, the Cotsen Foundation for the Art of Teaching, is a program that is at several schools in Fullerton and what they do is allow teachers to plot a course for their professional growth plan in a content area of their choice, and they’re given a stipend and professional development days and opportunities and coaching. The title is mentor but it’s not mentoring. It’s more coaching and working alongside I think with a thinking partner for two years to kind of meet an end goal that the teacher sets for him or herself.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Emily McDougal: And so, when we all decided to apply for this, I just feel like my grade-level partners and I were so committed to the workshop model that we’d been trying to kind of piece together and do ourselves, like DIY workshop, and I just think that that year with those students we were so invested in trying to make it great that we had such good conversations about kids and there was this time then when we were actually going through the application process, it gave us an opportunity to talk and study kids and their work in such a deeper way that it fed us as educators and then that helped our students. And I can just—it was this really concentrated amount of time when we were actually applying, like doing the application and thinking of the model lessons that we were going to use. And my team members, I have such respect for. It was just the best little moment in time.

Wes Kriesel: That’s cool. Do you want to give them a shout-out, people you remember?

Emily McDougal: Michelle Ritz and Joy Arnold, yeah. Yeah. So, it was beautiful.

Wes Kriesel: That’s cool. So, a really intense time of, so, collaboration, conversation, deeper.

Emily McDougal: Yup.

Wes Kriesel: So, when you say deeper, like it gave you the opportunity to kind of look at your teaching, but you mentioned look at students deeper. What does that mean? What did you do during that period that you maybe…?

Emily McDougal: So, we were looking at student work and not defining it by a single product but by looking at where the student was in a process, and starting to look a little differently about how we view students and were they on a progression instead of how can we quantify them and what bucket do we put them in, and it just goes along with the work of Cotsen so well. That’s why I think we were ready for it. We were kind of starting to do that maybe because of just the personal relationships we had and just the kind of human beings that I was working with at that time. But, I just—that, that was it, yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, that’s cool. So, I have another question to ask you, and we already talked about I didn’t get a chance to do the pre-interviews, so I didn’t come prepared with some quotes.

Emily McDougal: Oh, right, right.

Wes Kriesel: But, talk about—so that was kind of a high point, something that lights you up. Talk about something that is on the other end the emotional spectrum, like a hard year or a tough assignment. It doesn’t have to be a whole year. It could be a phase or something that it was a struggle, or whatever reason.

Emily McDougal: A struggle, right.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Emily McDougal: I think within that same grade-level team we were, maybe a couple of years before, we were trying to do workshop and just be workshop without really collaborating and communicating, maybe just more like checking off boxes that, “Yup, we do this, we do this, we do this,” and really not being—I think over time we developed a trust with each other to share where we worked the areas we could have been growing in. But, you want to protect yourself and shield yourself from anyone doubting you or judging you or thinking you’re not good at something, but I think that once we got to that place of trust we were able to say, “Wow, this is where I am and this is where I need to go, and I know I’m not doing this right and what can I do here?” and just kind of opening that door. So, I think maybe in that moment I didn’t feel it, but looking back I think, “Gosh, I think I was just really checking boxes and going through the motions and wanting to appear as though I was doing something because you always have to be on, you always have to be at a 4,” right?

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Emily McDougal: It’s never okay just to check the box that says you’re developing. You have to be—right—innovating at all times, right? And if you’re not innovating, you know.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. That’s really interesting. So, talk more about the role of trust because one of the things I want to learn about is innovation and what people think about. So, that’s the how question. How would you work to develop trust? Let’s say you’re given a new place, a new school, new assignment, and you’re with people where you’re like, “Hey, we have [00:13:20 obtained this] great innovative work. I can see the trust isn’t there.” You’re in some sort of leadership role or maybe just colleagues with people. What are your go-tos to try to develop trust between people to lay the foundation to do greater work later?

Emily McDougal: Right. I think that, I mean, the obvious answer is like communication and transparency, but what does that look like? I feel that when I was starting to develop trust with some people through the Cotsen process, I think that owning my, what’s the word, being honest about where I felt I was in the process of being in this new Cotsen role was a breakthrough point with some of my fellows. I said, “Hey, this is my first year doing this thing and I’m probably not doing it right, and I’m just telling you this that I’m just trying my best right now and be on this journey with me,” you know?

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. That’s a very vulnerable place to be and it’s risky to tell somebody else.

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: I mean, you might think it to yourself—like I remember the first time I’d left the classroom and all of a sudden, I’m coaching other teachers. I was a support provider full-time out of class, and you’re just like, “Everyone else is teaching and I’m in the break room waiting to meet with a teacher.” It’s called impostor syndrome. It has a name.

Emily McDougal: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: You just think, “I don’t belong here.”

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Like, “I’m fooling people.” Yes.

Emily McDougal: Yes, you just defined the last two years of my life. Yeah, yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, interesting. So, one tool for you is to take that risk and share something of yourself.

Emily McDougal: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Emily McDougal: And I did that, I kind of brought some of my yoga into it because I love yoga. It’s something that a lot of people know about me. I’m obsessed with hot yoga.

Wes Kriesel: Okay. Please define hot yoga.

Emily McDougal: Hot yoga is yoga that’s done in a heated room, a hundred degrees. Bikram is like the ultimate of it. It’s like 108 degrees.

Wes Kriesel: Okay.

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: My yoga proficiency is, I’m around a C minus.

Emily McDougal: Okay. Great. Yeah, so you’re emerging.

Wes Kriesel: I’m emerging.

Emily McDougal: We got to use the terms, yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Emily McDougal: Emerging, developing, yeah. No. So, hot yoga is done in a heated room. It’s incredibly therapeutic and spiritual and physical, and I love it. So, I go a lot and I do a lot of my thinking during yoga, and I was thinking about this process for my fellows and kind of how they have to be so vulnerable, and I wanted to show that I can be vulnerable, too, and I can show you what I’m doing and what I’m practicing because I think teaching is a practice just like yoga as a practice, right?

Wes Kriesel: Mm-hmm.

Emily McDougal: And I think that why I love my yoga and then the teachers that I take from is because they’re like, “We’re just here along with you on this ride and you don’t have a destination in your pose and you’re moving towards something constantly,” and I appreciated that. I’m like, “Wow, that’s just like teaching. That’s just like what these fellows are doing. They are moving along in a direction in their teaching.” And so, I did something and it was super-corny but a few of them were like, “Wow, that was it. You really made an impact.”

Wes Kriesel: Are you going to share what that was?

Emily McDougal: Yeah, I’m going to share what it was, but it was super-corny so I’m kind of like…

Wes Kriesel: You had me at corny.

Emily McDougal: I’m kind of like covering my face with my hair. But, I videotaped myself. I have like this goal I want and I want to be able to do a true yoga handstand. And so, the way I was going about this in my practice was watching a lot of people do it, and we work on it every time I go to yoga. And I finally said, “Well, I think what I need to do is stop trying to look at myself in the mirror and like really set up a video camera and see what I’m doing.”

Wes Kriesel: Wow.

Emily McDougal: So, I videotaped myself going through this handstand process. I videotaped the adjustments, kind of different stages of where the teachers were like, “Okay, so you need to set up here and you need to put your hands here,” or “Look at where your hands are being placed,” and like kind of went through this video and I showed my fellows, like in my yoga clothes, like, “Here is where I’m at and my hand…”

Wes Kriesel: You showed the teachers.

Emily McDougal: Yes. I did. I said, “Here’s where I am. I want to be vulnerable with you and kind of share what I’m doing to meet my goals. As I’m doing the things you’re doing, I’m watching other people, I’m getting reflective feedback, I’m constantly…”

Wes Kriesel: That’s powerful. That’s not corny. I don’t…

Emily McDougal: Yeah, trying to watch myself. You don’t think that’s corny?

Wes Kriesel: I think that’s really powerful.

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Emily McDougal: I thought it was corny, but some people were like, they responded to that. They’re like, “Thanks for opening up.” Because I said, “Yeah, I’m going into your room every week. I’m watching you. Whether or not”—the Cotsen is not evaluative, but you can be told something is not evaluative but the feeling is there and that feeling is real. Even if it’s not true, your feeling is real. And so, if people are feeling that judgment or feeling that nervousness, you have to honor it and say, “Hey, well, I’ll put myself out there and just show myself in Spandex trying to stand on my hands.” That’s kind of what I was trying to do for these women, like, “Hey, I’m here and I’ll be vulnerable and I’ll do this alongside with you, and if you want me to do the model lesson and vomit with you, like, hopefully, you’ll see I’m willing to do that since I’m willing to put on Spandex and show you myself in a headstand.”

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Yeah, definitely, it’s modeling, right?

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: But, it’s also, I mean, we can model without taking risks, and there’s something…

Emily McDougal: Right.

Wes Kriesel: It’s interesting, the fact that you took something outside of teaching that was personal and you brought it in, to me, is innovative in itself, right? So, talk about, is that something, a standalone, like, “Oh, it’s kind of unusual for me to do that?” Or, talk about the inspiration for that, to bring yoga into that relationship with other teachers.

Emily McDougal: I think that really, that’s almost been a result of the work through Cotsen, is this idea of really looking at teaching as a practice and stop trying to figure out like how to make yourself arrive somewhere. You know, it’s not a destination. It’s something you’re constantly improving not because you’re bad at it. I don’t go to yoga every week because I’m bad at it. I go because I want to continue moving in it.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. That’s an interesting concept, because we are so oriented to bad or good or success or failure.

Emily McDougal: Yeah. Yes.

Wes Kriesel: So, you’re introducing the idea along the lines of what you said about those students, about looking at them on a progression.

Wes Kriesel: Yes. Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Like for ourselves as educators, are we allowed to see ourselves on a continuum of progress versus a binary, “You’re good or not good?”

Emily McDougal: Right.

Wes Kriesel: Hmm. That’s deep.

Emily McDougal: I do, and I think that’s why I’m such a workshop fangirl, is just that it really allows students to work and to practice their learning, to be in a mode of practice and improvement at all times. And then, that’s why I think it’s great for teachers, is because it aligns itself so much with really allowing them to practice their profession and practice their craft and not be all about their performance, you know?

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Emily McDougal: So, that’s why workshop, yoga, it all kind of goes together for me and, yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. So, we’ve talked about a highlight in Fullerton, we’ve talked about a struggle point, which is actually interesting because they were the same group of people.

Emily McDougal: Right.

Wes Kriesel: Right? And the idea of moving on a progression. So, bonus – here’s our bonus moment. Anything else you want to share that you think in the terms of risk-taking or innovating something, a personal experience you’ve gone through, that you think might shed light on why it’s important what benefit comes from trying new things?

Emily McDougal: Risk-taking or innovating? I wouldn’t say it’s innovating, maybe risk-taking personally. So, I started in Instagram, called thiswholemama, because I like to do The Whole30 every once in a while. It’s kind of just like a reset with like clean eating and unprocessed foods. I decided to just be very like public about it and not preach it but just be like, “Hey, this is kind of what I’m doing,” and I found a lot of support and not inspiration, but I got some ideas from other people who were just regular people like me and connected with them through different social media platforms. And it’s funny, like as soon as I put myself out there like, “This is who I am, I like yoga, I love Jesus, and I love my family and teaching, and I’m going to talk to you about what I do and Whole30 and just some things that are going on in my life,” and put myself out there, and when I did that, people started responding to me, people who I knew, and then people who I didn’t know, in a very like just real authentic way. And so, I feel like I’m helping people but I’m also getting a lot of help because it’s a community that I’m learning from. So, that was kind of a risk-taking moment because, you know, who likes to talk about like, “Here’s what I’m eating today?” What woman likes to be up there and be like, “Yeah, it’s me practicing my handstand and let’s all judge what I’m eating right now.” But, you know, just to kind of just take a risk and put it out there because I think I’ve appreciated other people who have done that. And so, yeah, why not?

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. It sounds like the response you got was fairly affirming.

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah, you felt supported, people connecting, giving you valuable feedback.

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: So, we’re getting close to our end but, what advice would you give somebody who is being their best, most authentic true self and the world is not affirming them? What would you tell that person? And think of like a first-year teacher, somebody who’s just not in that community, they’re new and…

Emily McDougal: Explore your core values and genuinely ask the people close to you, the people who you feel like you might have a connection with, to learn more about them and see how you can affirm and honor them, I think. I think when you start looking for ways you can serve others and ways you can make connections in a way that’s not about building yourself up, it naturally happens. I think there’s just this synergy that occurs.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. So, help me with this. I’m that teacher. I’m not feeling affirmed. I’m listening to this podcast. And if I’m hearing you right, “get interested in learning about others.” Let’s say I’m not gifted that way, give me three concrete ideas.

Emily McDougal: Okay. Okay. First, you have to know, what are you valuing? What do you want to be as an educator? What does that look like? And you need to find those kinds of people who either have the potential to be like that or who you feel like, “Oh, hey, I think we have a similar mindset,” and you can do that just with the people on your staff or develop a professional learning network like Ann Kozma says, you know, to get on Twitter and to find those people. And I found a lot of people just by clicking through, “Who do the people who I like follow?” Or, to find books by those authors or those teachers or those educators or anyone, I think, and…

Wes Kriesel: So, let’s go back.

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: So, if you have somebody around you and you think they share a value, so then you can start observing them, right?

Emily McDougal: Yeah. Yes.

Wes Kriesel: And then, if not, then you have Twitter and you have books.

Emily McDougal: Right.

Wes Kriesel: So, you have that kind of virtual network, let’s say.

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: So, let’s stay in the realm of your school.

Emily McDougal: The people.

Wes Kriesel: So, you’re observing somebody, so I see somebody, “Wow, I love the way they did that,” whatever it is. So, you observe. So, give me a couple…

Emily McDougal: Okay. I’ve said this before: If you think someone’s cool—and I always tell this to my daughter with other girls. I’m like, “If you think some other girl is cool, you like her hair, you tell her. Don’t like be…so if you think someone is…”

Wes Kriesel: Hmm. Wow. That’s so deep.

Emily McDougal: Is it? I don’t know.

Wes Kriesel: It seems simple but it’s so deep.

Emily McDougal: It’s simple.

Wes Kriesel: And it’s a moment of vulnerability.

Emily McDougal: Yeah, but it can also be a moment of empowering another person and yourself. You’re saying like, “This is who I am, I like this about you, you’re cool, and I think you’re cool and here’s why.” I think that when we hear it and tell people that, I think that that’s what develops this synergy. I think that we feel like we have to be almost too cool for school sometimes with each other as adults and, I don’t know, I just…

Wes Kriesel: Like see it but not recognize it and just file it away.

Emily McDougal: Yeah. Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: So, give me one more tip. So, we have like you’re observing, you notice somebody has a behavior that aligns with your core value, you have—by the way, I’m enjoying this a lot.

Emily McDougal: Are you? Okay.

Wes Kriesel: This is super-fun. So, you see the behavior that aligns with a core value, and then you affirm them like to say, “Hey, I love you the way you wrote that thank-you card for the administrator. That’s the kind of teacher I want to be.” So, you say that.

Emily McDougal: Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Give me one other thing you think a person who’s feeling alone and isolated and being their best selves but not feeling affirmed by others, what’s another tip or strategy or approach?

Emily McDougal: I think that when you’re pouring yourselves into your students, they affirm you in such a way that no one would get it outside of having had a classroom before, that their work, and if you start looking at the impact you make on them, that’s affirming. And you start looking at the student and the learner that they’ve become and where you’ve grown or where you breathe the life into them in this one area, that’s incredibly affirming. But, I think that gets lost in the wash a lot of times, like letting yourself feel that pride and letting yourself be energized by that because sometimes it can feel selfish to like take this glory from your students. But, no, have it feed you and feel you, and then you give back into them even more, I think. Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Do you have a concrete practice that’s related to that like journaling? Or, how would a teacher—because I could look at my students’ work and I could probably just think like, “Oh, I have a hundred essays to grade still.” I won’t see the value that you’re describing because there’s so much other things related to what I have to do with student work.

Emily McDougal: For sure.

Wes Kriesel: So, is there a way…

Emily McDougal: Yes.

Wes Kriesel: Okay. I knew there would be.

Emily McDougal: And I’m not going to speak to it like from me but like I actually just observed this happening yesterday that—and I snapped a picture of it. I wish I could show you.

Wes Kriesel: You can show me.

Emily McDougal: I could show you. Okay.

Wes Kriesel: We can’t show the viewers but you can show me.

Emily McDougal: No, but the one-on-one conferring that happens, and whether it’s in workshop—I mean, it doesn’t have to be conferring and meeting with students one-on-one. It’s happened before workshop and it will happen after workshop. But, having that moment where you’re talking about, “What are you doing as a learner? What are you working on? Wow, I noticed that you did this. I noticed that you’re the kind of learner who does this. You must be so proud of yourself,” and having that genuine reaction from a student getting that praise and validation from where they are, no matter if they’re somebody who’s just emerging as a reader or if they’re reading War and Peace, that is incredibly satisfying to watch as an observer. And that was just me watching the interaction take place, but the smile on this teacher’s face as the student’s smiling and they high-five at the end of their little conversation brought tears to my eyes. And I know those interactions, I’ve had those interactions, and that’s really what it’s all about.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah.

Emily McDougal: I have to show you because it just was like, “Oh my gosh.” So, like this little setup, and I texted it to my mom.

Wes Kriesel: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Emily McDougal: I’m like, “I’m lucky enough to watch…”

Wes Kriesel: That’s a great—yeah.

Emily McDougal: “I’m lucky enough to see this beautiful process happening right now.”

Wes Kriesel: And you could just see in the nonverbal, like their posture, the way they’re attending to each other, it’s beautiful.

Emily McDougal: Yeah, and so much of it is nonverbal. I just kept getting [00:30:18 unintelligible] clip.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. So, for the people listening, it’s a picture of a teacher—do you use the word conferring?

Emily McDougal: Mm-hmm.

Wes Kriesel: So, conferencing with a student and just…

Emily McDougal: And I just kept snapping away because there were just too many moments that I had to say, “Look at her little face.”

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. And the student’s simultaneously happy and you can also see that they’re receiving the positive attention from the teacher.

Emily McDougal: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Wes Kriesel: Yeah. That’s great. Well, we at the end of our time, so I’m going to say thank you very much.

Emily McDougal: Thank you.

Wes Kriesel: And this is great. I really enjoyed it.

Emily McDougal: All right. Thank you.

Outro: This has been the Teacher Interview Podcast. Thank you.

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